Question on the Beginning of the Theological Virtues

[richgr]

Hi,

My question is about when the virtue of Faith first "begins to appear" in a person. So for example, if a person hasn't been baptized yet but would like to be baptized because he believes that the Catholic Church contains the fullness of grace and truth of God's revelation to humans, does that mean Faith (the virtue) has already been given to him, or must he wait until Baptism before Faith is infused into him?

The same question goes for Hope and Love. Does a person who hasn't been baptized have to wait until Baptism to receive Faith, Hope, and Love? And are there any ways for that person to know if he has or doesn't have the theological virtues?

Thanks!

Richard G.

[Gabriel]

For clarification: Are you wanting to know if the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit fall upon those not baptized?
Acts has an interesting story in relation to this:
Chapter 8

9 A man named Simon used to practice magic in the city and astounded the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great.
10 All of them, from the least to the greatest, paid attention to him, saying, "This man is the 'Power of God' that is called 'Great.'"
11 They paid attention to him because he had astounded them by his magic for a long time, 12 but once they began to believe Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, men and women alike were baptized.13 Even Simon himself believed and, after being baptized, became devoted to Philip; and when he saw the signs and mighty deeds that were occurring, he was astounded.

14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit, 16 for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was conferred by the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19 and said, "Give me this power too, so that anyone upon whom I lay my hands may receive the holy Spirit."
20 But Peter said to him, "May your money perish with you, because you thought that you could buy the gift of God with money.
21 You have no share or lot in this matter, for your heart is not upright before God.
22Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven.
23 For I see that you are filled with bitter gall and are in the bonds of iniquity."
24 Simon said in reply, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me

Gabriel
CHS

[richgr]

Well, for example, I know that Love disappears when habitual grace leaves the soul due to mortal sin, but one can still have the virtues of Faith and Hope even though they are "dead" without Love unless one's mortal sin had been a sin directly against Faith or Hope. But, if a person, by the grace of God, comes to believe over time in the teachings of the Church and desires to be baptized, does that person have habitual grace along with the infused virtues before Baptism, or must the person wait until Baptism to be "put in" a state of grace? I guess, then, Gabriel, that one could, in this case, interchange the virtues (whether infused moral or theological) with the Gifts.

I suppose then, my question, in its most essential form, is when does such a person, who has yet to be baptized but desires Baptism because he believes, come into a state of grace, before or after Baptism? If before, how is the change in the person's soul verified?

But I've also heard we can't have certain knowledge of whether we are in a state of grace or not but can tell only by various signs, such as the attraction towards the things of God, prayer, and the overall orientation in one's everyday life towards God. So the question of how to verify the state of grace, I guess, is tricky?

Basically, I'm referring to those Protestants who simply assert that once a person declares Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, then bam, they're saved (of course, not so fast, but my point is basically the same). If a person believes in Jesus Christ and the Gospel, does that person receive sanctifying grace and all that comes with it before Baptism?

Sorry for the verbiage.

---

That passage from Acts now brings up some more questions about how the Church has interpreted that passage. For example, does not the Church teach that the Holy Spirit comes to those who are baptized? How is it then that the passage from Acts says that those who were baptized had not yet received the Holy Spirit? Or were their baptisms not valid baptisms because they were baptized only in the name of the Lord Jesus and not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

[Gabriel]

Great questions....
To help us along, the catechism:
1259 -

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

and 1265-1266

1265
Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature," member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.
1266
The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

I have some additional thoughts, but not the time now. I'll bet Fr Joe and others do too.

Gb

Gabriel

[JohnK]

There's grace and then there's GRACE. A nonbaptized person who desires to learn about God and be baptized has that desire through a special grace from God. It is by that grace God calls us. When that person is baptized, he enters into a state of GRACE.

If the baptized person commits mortal sin, GRACE is lost and his soul is definitely at stake. When God confronts the sinner (a grace) and he repents, he can, through the sacrament of Reconciliation, return to GRACE.

[Mary's boy]

Great Questions and Great Dialogue! You guys are inspiring. Keep up the good work, but be careful not to condition the depth of Love, Mercy, and Forgiveness of God. (sorry but I like Caps)
Mary's boy.

[richgr]

Thanks Gabriel, John, and Mary's boy. I feel that I must wait for Fr. Joe to help out here just for a sure reinforcement of John's answer. There is the sinking suspicion in me that I'm looking too closely at the trees and missing the whole view of the forest.

Just to recap the questions I have for simplicity's sake:

1) Is the necessity for Baptism so important that a non-baptized person who desires Baptism cannot enter a state of grace, or cannot obtain the infused virtues, or the Gifts of the Spirit, until the Baptism itself, or does God immediately respond to that desire to believe, hope, and love by infusing sanctifying grace into the non-baptized along with the infused virtues, the Gifts, the indwelling of God, etc.?

2) How can one verify that one is in a state of grace, assuming that such verification is possible? Is it true that we cannot have certain knowledge of whether we are in grace or not unless by a special revelation?

3) In the passage from Acts quoted by Gabriel above, how does the Church interpret that passage about how the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon those newly baptized Christians since its teaching is that the Holy Spirit does assuredly come with Baptism? Were those baptisms in Acts "missing" something?

Thanks, again!

[Gabriel]

I think we have Baptism, followed by Confirmation.

1288 "From that time on the apostles, in fulfillment of Christ's will, imparted to the newly baptized by the laying on of hands the gift of the Spirit that completes the grace of Baptism. For this reason in the Letter to the Hebrews the doctrine concerning Baptism and the laying on of hands is listed among the first elements of Christian instruction. The imposition of hands is rightly recognized by the Catholic tradition as the origin of the sacrament of Confirmation, which in a certain way perpetuates the grace of Pentecost in the Church."99

1289 Very early, the better to signify the gift of the Holy Spirit, an anointing with perfumed oil (chrism) was added to the laying on of hands. This anointing highlights the name "Christian," which means "anointed" and derives from that of Christ himself whom God "anointed with the Holy Spirit."100 This rite of anointing has continued ever since, in both East and West. For this reason the Eastern Churches call this sacrament Chrismation, anointing with chrism, or myron which means "chrism." In the West, the term Confirmation suggests that this sacrament both confirms and strengthens baptismal grace.

[JohnK]

Thanks Gabriel, John, and Mary's boy. I feel that I must wait for Fr. Joe to help out here just for a sure reinforcement of John's answer. There is the sinking suspicion in me that I'm looking too closely at the trees and missing the whole view of the forest.

Just to recap the questions I have for simplicity's sake:

1) Is the necessity for Baptism so important that a non-baptized person who desires Baptism cannot enter a state of grace, or cannot obtain the infused virtues, or the Gifts of the Spirit, until the Baptism itself, or does God immediately respond to that desire to believe, hope, and love by infusing sanctifying grace into the non-baptized along with the infused virtues, the Gifts, the indwelling of God, etc.?

There is no limiting the ability of God

While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, "Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?" He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

As we see, the Holy Spirit came on the unbaptized in this case. This is certainly not the usual circumstance. In discussing faith and the sacraments, we usually discuss the usual circumstances since that is the limit of our ability. God is not bound by the rules He gave us or that we impose on ourselves.

2) How can one verify that one is in a state of grace, assuming that such verification is possible? Is it true that we cannot have certain knowledge of whether we are in grace or not unless by a special revelation?

There are only three ways I know know of. First is when one is still wet from baptism. Second is when one on his way to the "exit" door of the confessional. Third is when one is solemnly declared to be a Saint in the Church Triumphant.

3) In the passage from Acts quoted by Gabriel above, how does the Church interpret that passage about how the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon those newly baptized Christians since its teaching is that the Holy Spirit does assuredly come with Baptism? Were those baptisms in Acts "missing" something?

Thanks, again!

Yes. They were missing a Bishop to lay hands on them. Philip (vs 11) was a Deacon. Thus, he was able to baptize but not confer the Holy Spirit.

[richgr]

Thanks, John! Those responses have sufficiently answered my questions. Just before I logged in, I stumbled across this particular line in the Summa that I had heard before but had forgotten: "Whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly" (IIIa, q. 68, a. 2 - On the recipients of Baptism).

Thanks especially for the explanation of the Scriptural reading.

[Gabriel]

One thing I might add/suggest. Could these be examples of baptism of desire?
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/mod ... desire.htm
Gabriel
CHS

[richgr]

Yes, Gabriel, I think these would be examples of the Baptism of desire. I had not considered my questions from that perspective until you mentioned the Baptism of desire.

As for verifying whether we are in a state of grace, I found the article (Ia IIae, q. 122, a. 5) in the Summa that brought up this question in the first place; I had forgotten about its location and had remembered its contents only vaguely when I first posted these questions. This is a very interesting article: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2112.htm#article5. St. Thomas Aquinas asserts that we can't know for certain, but we can know if we either receive a special revelation from God Himself or we can know conjecturally through certain signs of the presence of grace in our souls.

Reflecting on this given article, I think even here John's examples from above could be disputed (except of course if one were to suddenly find him or herself in Heaven, but I had in mind those still in the Church Militant). For example, if one is still wet from Baptism and is a baby, then the baby certainly does not know; but if one is a baptized adult, still the adult has not a certain knowledge, but Faith that he or she is in a state of grace. Faith excludes doubt and curiosity by its nature, but it is not certain knowledge. For if we had certain knowledge of God's existence, we would not need Faith in His existence, and likewise for every other article of Faith.

Second, coming out of the confessional after confessing mortal sins still doesn't produce certain knowledge. Again, it is by Faith we believe that we are in a state of grace, but we do not know for certain; otherwise we would not need Faith. For non-believers could go into a confessional, confess their sins, and come out thinking they are in a state of grace but are truly not.

I think then that the only way we could know for certain would be by special revelation or by being in Heaven. Of course, the Summa Theologica isn't dogma, but the Saint does offer some pretty convincing arguments, taken together with considerations on what we mean by the virtue of Faith. St. Thomas's conclusions are pretty humbling...

[JohnK]

I think even here John's examples from above could be disputed (except of course if one were to suddenly find him or herself in Heaven, but I had in mind those still in the Church Militant).

You caught me

[richgr]

Oops, I made a mistake. It's question 112, not 122. Sorry.